Gov. Mark Gordon wanted feedback on a plan to allow guns at the Wyoming Capitol. But when the time came Monday to testify, only a few members of the public took him up on his offer.
A dozen people spoke at the Wyoming State Building Commission meeting — half attended virtually — and six of them were state lawmakers. The politicians all spoke in support of allowing those who work in and visit the building to carry firearms.
Of the non-politicians who spoke, four opposed allowing civilians to carry firearms into the Capitol, while two felt that allowing concealed carry in that building didn’t go far enough.
As of Monday, 36 people provided opinions and comments via an online form that is expected to remain open until Oct. 2. The comments were not read aloud during the meeting.
Working Capitol law enforcement can already carry firearms in the building, but legislators, lobbyists and visitors can’t. Legislators passed a bill this last session that would’ve allowed concealed carry in most buildings overseen by the state — including the Capitol — but Gordon vetoed the measure, citing constitutional concerns. Soon after, the governor directed the building commission to reconsider rules for concealed carry permit holders at the Capitol and “other appropriate state facilities.”
The State Building Commission’s proposed rules changes discussed during Monday’s meeting would allow such permit holders to carry concealed firearms in public spaces of the Capitol and extension, or the underground meeting spaces attached to the Capitol. The commission is comprised of the governor, secretary of state, state auditor, state treasurer and superintendent of public instruction.
Public arguments
Among those opposing concealed carry was Larry Wolfe, a lawyer and former senior assistant attorney general who said he’d worked in and around the Wyoming Capitol since 1980.
“I have always felt safe in this building,” he said. “I’ve never once thought that I should be fearful for my life or the life of anybody else in the public for one reason: Because this building is protected.”
But, he felt, allowing concealed carry would make the building less safe for Capitol patrons, including those who are required to go there for work.
“It is no stretch of the imagination to think that if you allow legislators, lobbyists to carry guns in this building, that you are putting people at risk,” he said. “It is no stretch of the imagination to think that members of the Legislature who get in a heated argument with a lobbyist would open their jacket and display their gun, or reach into their purse and display [their] gun.”
Speaking on behalf of themselves, Wyoming residents Erika Cole, Tate Mullen and Andrew Schneider said they also opposed concealed carry in the Capitol. The three have worked with Moms Demand Action, the Wyoming Education Association and the Wyoming Arts Alliance, respectively — the former two groups advocating against an overarching concealed carry policy for public and governmental facilities — but didn’t say they were representing those groups at the meeting.
Schneider recalled the long history of gun prohibitions in certain places in Wyoming, and Mullen noted Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia’s opinion that the Second Amendment has limits and can exclude government buildings.
Whether state leaders decide to allow guns or not, Cole suggested there should at least be metal detectors so it’s clear who has a firearm and if they have a concealed carry permit. She also suggested more training should be provided to Capitol law enforcement if firearms are allowed.
“Currently … the person with the gun in the room is the threat,” she said. “And if you’re allowing the public to carry in[to the Capitol], there could be a situation of friendly fire.”
Donald Greer was among those who supported the rule change. He felt civilians should be able to carry firearms into the Capitol and that law enforcement officers in the building aren’t enough to protect everyone.
“I don’t see why one certain group of people have the right to protection over me,” he said. “It is not the responsibility of law enforcement to go around and protect you. Your freedom and your safety is yours and yours alone.”
Gun owners as a whole are trustworthy, he added, and the Second Amendment shouldn’t be infringed based on someone’s fear of another individual carrying.
Brian Pixley agreed.
“I believe it’s a Second Amendment right to anywhere you want to,” he said.
The lawmakers
Six state lawmakers spoke in favor of allowing guns at the Capitol including Reps. John Bear (R-Gillette), Ben Hornok (R-Cheyenne), Sarah Penn (R-Lander), Tony Locke (R-Casper), Allen Slagle (R-Newcastle), and Sen. Bob Ide (R-Casper). They frequently referenced House Bill 125 – Repeal gun free zones and preemption amendments.
The Legislature passed the bill during the most recent session — though not without some hard-fought legislative maneuvering — which would’ve allowed people with concealed carry licenses to bring firearms into most facilities overseen by the state, including local government offices and schools.
Gordon vetoed the bill after the Legislature adjourned, citing his concerns that it infringed on local control and violated the separation of powers granted in the state constitution.
“Imperfect language opens potential loopholes such as putting a family services case worker at risk of being charged with a misdemeanor for simply asking someone they knew to be carrying a firearm to leave a building in order to defuse an emotionally charged family situation,” he wrote.
Gordon at the time said he would look back at the issue. Monday’s special meeting, he said, was part of making good on that promise.
While some lawmakers expressed gratitude for Gordon following through, they also felt the proposed rules could cause confusion by only allowing people with concealed carry licenses to bring firearms into the statehouse.
“I do see a potential problem where those people who are carrying via constitutional carry versus those people who are a different class because they have a permit,” Bear said. Bear leads the hard-line Wyoming Freedom Caucus, which has criticized Gordon over his gun-free zone veto.
Gordon said he hopes the building commission’s actions can pair with decisions made by the Management Council — the administrative arm of the Legislature — to create a cohesive, easy-to-understand policy of when and where firearms are allowed.
It’s no simple matter, however. Different parts of the Capitol are under control of different branches of government depending on whether the Legislature is in session.
And the changes could leave office spaces and the Herschler Building with different rules than public areas of the Capitol. State Auditor Kristi Racines said she felt there should be some level of uniformity for individual agency rules around the Capitol and extension, too, concerning whether public employees are allowed to bring guns to the office.
“I feel very uncomfortable leaving this up to agency by agency,” she said. “I don’t think employees should have different rights or lack thereof based on which floor they work on.”
State Treasurer Curt Meier said he wanted to allow firearms in his office, too, but suggested some training should be offered.
Next steps
Secretary of State Chuck Gray asked several times during the meeting what the next steps would be in allowing firearms in the Capitol.
“I’m worried we’re not going to get this done in 2024 if we just keep vacillating, dithering and delaying,” Gray said.
In response, Gordon said he anticipates the language proposed during Monday’s meeting will likely change and that there were more specifics to work out in upcoming meetings.
“Hopefully all of this can arrive at a good location for the Legislature to take it up as they will,” he said.
The Interim Joint Judiciary Committee is also set to discuss the issue on Sept. 19. The next official State Building Commission meeting is scheduled for Oct. 9.
While this discussion focused on public areas of the Capitol and the extension, future conversations could still include other facilities overseen by the state, Gordon said.
But in the meantime, firearm rules are being handled at the local level, including at schools, he said.
“There are a number of school districts that have managed to put policies in place that allow carry in the schools, and they’ve been able to figure out ways to get the insurance necessary,” he said. “My hope is that by being very deliberate in this process, that we make it possible for people to anticipate the challenges and be able to deal correctly with whatever issues that might come from that.”
To add your opinion about this topic to the public record, go here.
If they are going to force me to be surrounded by guns in my daily life, its only fair for them too. After all shouldn’t they feel safer? Or will they admit that that’s not how it works?
I can’t take my cell phone into the Federal Courthouse in Casper but let’s take guns into the Wyoming Capital. Perfect MAGA logic.
This is another example of just how spineless Governor Gordon has become in failing to do what’s right, just and fair for the citizens of Wyoming. He could have let his veto stand and we could move on from the continuing asinine political quagmire surrounding guns. Shows again how the Governor continues to run scared of the Wyoming Freedumb Caucus instead of being a Governor for all the people of Wyoming. Grow a spine Governor Gordon!
Many, including me have said this before, but I am compelled to say it again here, “Having a right to do something does not automatically or necessarily mean it is a good idea.” By the same token, how often, during the 134 year history of meetings and public entry to the Capitol building has there been an incident suggesting concealed carry is a good idea?
We all have the Constitutional right to free speech, but that does not give us the right to scream “Fire” in a movie theater. We all have the right to assemble, but that right too is limited depending on the circumstances.
Actually, you do have the right to tell “fire” in a theater. The phrase comes from a majority SCOTUS opinion upholding the conviction of opponents of the draft during WWI. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/627134/is-it-illegal-to-shout-fire-in-crowded-theater
I attended this meeting and the article was very well written and gave a good accounting of the meeting.
Great work.
One hand I think guns not needed in Capitol. Other hand tells me it better to have one and NEVER NEED it than NEED ONE and don’t have it. Schools? All teachers should be trained and armed. Emergency firearms in every class room. Plus start fire arm training of all students in kindergarten and continue thru graduation. Evan go so far as $500 voucher to students firearm of choice upon graduation. They could earn CWP.
Push for it in Colorado Larry, where you live. There are too many out of state know-it-alls that pretend they are from wyoming already. We don’t need anymore angry boomers trying to change our state. Especially when you aren’t from here.
A fellow citizen goes on record and says this?!:
“It is not the responsibility of law enforcement to go around and protect you. Your freedom and your safety is yours and yours alone.”
I fear for our state. Written with disgust and sadness,
Your Fellow Citizen
Be disgusted and sad. I prefer the right to defend myself. Fellow citizen.
“It is not the responsibility of law enforcement to go around and protect you. Your freedom and your safety is yours and yours alone.” You have problem with a fellow citizen saying this? How do you feel about the courts saying it? They have, including DC Court of Appeals (Warren v. District of Columbia 1981) and SCOTUS (Gonzales v Castle Rock in 2005).
Gary… I agree! If it is law enforcement’s responsibly to defend us, then law enforcement will search and seize every gun on every human body in an effort to fulfill their duty. Then… I can’t even defend myself anymore simply because I am a law abiding citizen amongst many who are NOT law abiding citizens.
“It is not the responsibility of law enforcement to go around and protect you. Your freedom and your safety is yours and yours alone.”
Since this is the case, then why is the police department the 2nd largest budget line in my county? We have a swat team, a drone team and a sniper team who spend their whole careers training for something that will never happen in small town wyoming.
Ever heard of a town named Cokeville?? Look it up.
Never say never.
Our great-great-great grandparents recognized the dangers of open carry in public spaces and required that all firearms be checked. They were wiser by far than our current crop of ‘leaders’.
Your great-great-great grandparents lived in a different time. That was back when horseless carriages were outlawed because they scared the horses on the streets. We’re they wiser back then than we are now?
“36 people provided opinions and comments via an online form that is expected to remain open until Oct. 2. The comments were not read aloud during the meeting.” So, myself and 35 other taxpayer voices were pretty much just disregarded in this conversation. I even went so far as to take the time to thank them for creating the opportunity to participate. Boy do I feel stupid now.
Wow, what an unimportant subject. Don’t you goofballs have more important subjects? Let them do it, maybe they’ll thin the herd.